This is an audio transcript of The Morning Brief podcast episode: The Great Student Migration - Is India's education system flawed or failing?

BG Sound  

This is the morning brief from the economic times. 

Anupriya Bahadur  

Friends of mine recently headed to Masai Mara to watch the incredible migration. But dropping them off at the Mumbai International Airport, I too had the opportunity of watching another massive migration. Scores of Young Link sniffling goodbyes to parents and friends. I had a ringside view at the departure terminal to the great student migration. Over six lakh students each year head out of the country to fulfill their academic ambitions. And this is still just a fraction of those that actually applied and hope to make their getaway. And despite a crashing, groupie, and massively escalating cost, the brain drain is just not slowing. We explore why and where all the freshmen are fleeing. And if the Indian education system is just flawed, or purely failing,

BG Sound  

I'm going to be joining Oxford University in the fall,

every student we spoke to had exactly the same list of colleges they were applying to.

I think that mixing and matching and giving students more choice, along with a core foundation program is the direction that these institutions need to move in. I think soon people will realize that there's no point going to university number 50. In America,

Prof. C. Raj Kumar  

I think more and more innovation will be taking place in which dual degree programs is going to become the norm. And this is where there is enormous potential for India and Indian institutions to look at the world.

Anupriya Bahadur  

It's the sixth of September, I'm your host Anupriya. And we're exploring the great student migration with a student, a counselor, and top notch homegrown education brands Ashoka and OPG in the university here on the morning prayer.

Let's start at Ground Zero with the subject itself. The student Treya Agarwal well recent grade 12 graduate from a top Ivy school from Mumbai is going to help me understand what is really going on. Three are welcome on the show. 

Treya Agarwal  

Hi, thank you for having me 

Anupriya Bahadur  

All your bags and ready to go through your first step. Where are you headed?

Treya Agarwal  

I'm going to be joining Oxford University in the fall. And I'm studying politics, philosophy and economics. 

Anupriya Bahadur  

Wow, that sounds a lot for an 18 year old. But all the very best. Just the decision to go abroad I mean, is now a given when you join an IB school, we're just trying to understand the student's psyche at this point.

Treya Agarwal  

So I think that it's not a given an IB school. But I think that there's a certain environment in like, the social circles that we're in which, where it is at some point like a given that like oh, yeah, your kids probably going to go abroad, which is why like, for example, in my batch of 113 kids, two children are studying in India, everyone was going like, you know, abroad. But there's also the fact that the editor like a lot of like concrete reasons why people go abroad, the education quality is so much better. The fact that you know, there's a certain level of independence, the fact that you get better job opportunities. So yeah, it's kind of default.

Anupriya Bahadur  

How early does this process start for you? And what was the order? Was the what you want to do or where you want to go? What was the order of sort of research and prioritizing? 

Treya Agarwal  

I mean especially starts the process pretty early. So I started doing counseling with school in ninth grade. But I had been thinking about like going to college and I dream universities and stuff since like eighth grade, because that's the environment that will kind of create that you hear your seniors get into like gear and Harvard and stuff. And you're like, oh, you know, I want to do that. And these are people that have taken like, life decisions with you. And you can see yourself doing that as well. In terms of whether you pick the subject first, you pick the college, that depends a lot on like the student individually. I know a lot of people who picked like the college over the subject, especially with the US because there's so much room to explore in the US and as long as you're at a good institution, it doesn't matter you can change your Major at any point as opposed to you like even the major that you apply with does not mean that you necessarily have to study. So it can be very much like oh, I I'm saying I'm going for environmental engineering, but I end up doing computer science. I'm saying I'm going for, you know, liberal arts but I love doing like finance, it's very possible to do that.

Anupriya Bahadur  

So while you were making these decisions, chair and you were in conversation with your counselors and your friends circle, what any Indian schools making into that for you or was the decision final that I want to go abroad, and here's all we can all I can do or was it this is what I would like to study and these are my best options.

Treya Agarwal  

Okay, so for most people, personally, those people some people do take into account engineering people who don't know what to do want what they want to do. Do not consider Indian like, they rarely ever think about like any Indian universities, mostly because Indian universities don't have that space to like, you know, experiment, like classes, drop classes, do, you know, minors majors, declare your major later, all of that flexibility that's available in the US isn't available here. So that gets knocked off pretty far

Anupriya Bahadur  

from the ambition of going abroad to the application, and then finally, the acceptance, the journey is long, sometimes tedious. And well, it takes a village to execute. The prep for the great migration is not just schools and parents, there is some of you may already know an entire ecosystem of professional advisors that are guiding students to determine their drive, as well as some point the destinations. A recent study showed that there are as many as 1.4 million career counselors in India, but even that number is falling short of demand. speaking to us today on the morning brief is Kim Dixit, founder and CEO of the red pen here in Mumbai. Kim, thank you so much for joining us here on the morning brief.

Kim Dixit  

Thank you, Anna. Priya, it's a pleasure to be here. I hope I can answer some questions.

Anupriya Bahadur  

I'm sure you'll throw great insight with your experience and interactions with many, many students. It's been over a decade since you started red pen. Start from that point, what led to this decision? How did you see this market? Was it a need? Did you foresee a growing demand?

Kim Dixit  

Yeah, so we did perceive a need in the market? I wouldn't say you know that we went out and did proper research, market analysis or market research analysis and figured out there were this many customers and sort of proper business plan was not sort of the the the origin story, it was more organic than that. And, you know, it just came from the fact that people approached us they had really genuine questions that made us see there's a big gap and understanding about what people sort of think it means to go abroad and the expectations, the preparation needed, and also what US universities are looking for. So based on questions that we were getting, through friends, family, professional networks, and different people, we kind of figured that there was a need for this, I think so you know, some of the gaps were just things like, you know, the colleges that could exist, I think that every student we spoke to had exactly the same list of colleges they were applying to regardless of you know, their interests, their preferences, their choices, course of study. And so you know, seeing that people didn't have the right information to make good decisions about where to apply, and how to apply. It was kind of really the the starting point,

Anupriya Bahadur  

in your opinion, is it the ivy school culture that has boomed that has pushed or given more aspiration for people to go abroad? Or have more IB schools being present in especially in a city like Bombay more, because kids are wanting to go abroad? So they're catering to that need? Something that universities have not kept up pace within India?

BG Sound  

Yeah. So I guess you're asking is it it's a chicken and egg problem. You know, what came first the desire to go abroad or the ivy schools, I feel it's a reflection of what families want for their kids. I mean, parents and educators have all kind of just realized that exam focused learning isn't perhaps the way of the future. And so the IB, in particular does give a much broader base of knowledge and better skills of learning. I don't think that there's a craze and people are just running after the IB for no good reason. There is a good reason. And I think people are very intentional about it.

Anupriya Bahadur  

Kim I want to come across the best fit philosophy versus the Ivy League ambitions. How do you balance expectations and hot sell that strategy to parents that have such high ambitions for the children?

BG Sound  

So explaining strategy and logic to people does become challenging. I mean, I do think that people have a better understanding of what different colleges offer that aren't in that branded segment. And I can tell you, that college y that you have never heard of, there is a great fit for you. But no employer in India knows the name of that college. That is more important, right? If you think your your child is going to have to come back to India and look for a job. And, you know, no one's heard of their college. It's really hard. And I think, you know, it's really hard to it's a hard sell. I have sympathy for those families. I can understand why they feel that way. Because it's expensive. It's really expensive.

Anupriya Bahadur  

Kim, last word from you. I saw on the red pen, website, as I was scanning through the various offerings, you have their list of Indian universities as well. I want you to reflect on what's happening in India. In terms of the undergrad, there are a few first, you know, universities coming up private university, especially in the liberal arts. The professionals have always been there the national law schools, or even the tech oriented or the fashion oriented, but in the liberal arts world as well. Now you've got a bit of a step up coming in. Where do you think that gap is right on why students are willing to pay 3x The amount Not willing to look at an Indian University at this point?

Kim Dixit  

Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. I think that it's changing a lot. And we've seen such a huge change. And just five years in universities, Indian liberal arts university is doing so well. But I think that the more traction and the more of a reputation the Indian liberal arts colleges get, the more we will see families and students kind of decide to stay back when people are very risk averse when it comes to education. So they'd rather take you know, a short thing in the US that's maybe not their first choice, then take college in India that they're just not sure about.

Anupriya Bahadur  

So let's turn a page now to a new chapter that's being written in the Indian higher education, the emergence of education brands outside the traditional professional streams, Ashish Dhawan , needs no introduction was pioneered the journey with Ashoka University. He's also founded a central square Foundation, a nonprofit organization that improves the quality for education for children in India. And now on the board of trustees for Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, as well as she's that's a fairly long and impressive introduction. Thank you so much for being here on the morning brief.

Ashish Dhawan  

Thank you. It's my pleasure.

Anupriya Bahadur  

I read an article last year that you recently written about weaponizing, Indian Education towards employability, we've been speaking to career counselors we've been speaking to students to understand and that is the big resounding concern many who have been choosing liberal arts in India, saying that it's leaving them jobless. How do you think the higher education system now is tackling that problem?

Ashish Dhawan  

Yeah, I think when we say liberal arts, you often mean that somebody has studied English literature, and they're jobless, because they may not necessarily have the skills to get into the workforce. When we had Ashoka talk about the idea of a liberal arts and sciences education. Essentially, we're talking about what the NEP 2020 has encapsulated very well, which is the idea of a multidisciplinary and holistic education. You know, for people who go to college, I mean, of course, you need specific knowledge, but more important than specific knowledge. And you get a lot of specific knowledge, if you're only going to study one stream physics, it's in Stevens got a specific knowledge. But I think the purpose of going to college really is to be prepared for the 21st century, you know, to develop a love for learning, to know how to write well and communicate well, to be able to think critically, be able to connect the dots, and be able to deal with ambiguity. So I think these soft skills, these 21st century skills are really what we need in higher education. And a multidisciplinary and holistic education prepares you better for that, versus one that completely puts you into a straitjacket.

Anupriya Bahadur  

Undoubtedly, and this love for learning, as you said the K 12 seem to have adapted to it much faster than the post 12 education. So you've seen a burst of IB schools coming in across but some of the university sprouting is not as much. So obviously now there's a big gap between these students who are coming out of IB schools and not having that exposure or the options as they step out. Why do you think that gap is so big between the two?

Ashish Dhawan  

I think it's more that just people stick to the status quo. So the universities that already have followed a certain model, which is the old British model of putting students in a straitjacket. So I think the what we need is we need to give it time where one is we have more institutions like Ahsoka, and there are many others that have come up, Kria Shivanagiri university Jindal flame, there's a whole host Ahmedabad University. So I see about a dozen universities that have sprung up new ones that are mostly philanthropic in nature, and have this wider perspective. And they are in a way pioneering this effort showing the way for a new model. It will take some time for the existing ones to adjust. But I see change already happened on the margin. So I think as anything 2020 gets implemented. And I think the first place it will get implemented is this four year program. I think the four year program allows you more leeway, in a sense more time to be able to do a combination of this breadth and depth. Right now it's all debt. So it started with baby steps. But I think it'll pick up as the implementation of any PII kicks in.

Anupriya Bahadur  

But as you open new interdisciplinary programs, increase exposure, that is a brand new requirement for educators to that educators skill base is somehow far widely more available overseas, where academia is encouraged and looked upon as a very distinguished career option. That is all evolved in India as much yet. So is there a skill gap on the higher education side now?

Ashish Dhawan  

Yeah, I mean, I think that if we're going to move to a new model with the existing set of faculty at the existing institutions, it's not easy if someone's been used to a certain way They're not going to change the way they teach, or do things differently. I think it behooves upon the leaders of these institutions to be visionary, and to chart out a 510 year plan. So recruit younger, younger faculty anyway are much more open minded. And the quality is very good, that you're able to recruit today, we have more PhD programs in India, we have people from abroad who want to come back. So I think there's an opportunity, it's not going to happen in a year or two. But over the next 10 years, I think that mixing and matching and giving students more choice, along with a core foundation program, is the direction that these institutions need to move,

Anupriya Bahadur  

Ashish you yourself have been Yale to Harvard degrees on your walls. These are ambitious degrees on anybody's walls at this point, but how far is the Indian education system at this point above k 12, to become aspirational for these students? How far is it from for a large number of poll to become a First Choice Option? To stay in India?

Ashish Dhawan  

I think it will happen. For the simple reason, if you look at, obviously, I think some of our best students who want to go to the US to these top places will still go, I doubt if someone gets into Harvard, they're gonna think twice about it, you know, they'll go for it, right? But if you look at the top 20 universities in the US, every year they take in about 600 undergraduates from India. That's it, you look at the top 30. It's probably about 1000, just over 1000 undergraduates. So those are the aspirational brands in the US, it's the top 30 And about 1000 students playing them, we have hundreds of 1000s of bright students, right? I think many more Indian universities, for universities will pop up because the truth is, it's only a very narrow minority, that will end up going to top universities abroad. And I think soon people will realize that there's no point going to university number 50 In America, there'll be 10 options in India that are better.

Anupriya Bahadur  

But she's people are taking that option of the number 15 Number 50. And paying a very hefty sum.

Ashish Dhawan  

I agree with you on a prayer. But I think you know, at some point, it dawned on people that look, if I have to pay somewhere around two and a half, three crore all in for this education, and my child eventually wants to come back to India, which most of them do, because anyway, your visa is for a short period of time. In the US, there's no guarantee. And most kids anyway want to come back. If that's the case. Are you better prepared for the workforce in India? I'm not sure to be honest. I think it will dawn on people. Yes. Upon getting into Harvard and getting into Princeton, Stanford, by all means take, it's an opportunity of a lifetime. But if I'm going to go to some no name university, you know, in the US, I'd rather settle for a top notch Indian option.

Anupriya Bahadur  

Ashish, before I let you go, final word from your what really needs to change in the immediate term to make a big difference in the higher education space?

Ashish Dhawan  

I would say three things. One is that Ashoka is not only an interesting model from an educational standpoint, as a philanthropic project, we have 200 founders and donors we have a very different governance structure. There is no owner of the university. I think that should inspire many others to create for other morfill other philanthropic universities like Ashoka. So my desire would be that in the next decade, we can see a mushrooming of in different states. You know, Ashoka type private philanthropic projects popping up. So that's one, two is, I hope that more universities offer this four year NEP is going to push them and a faster adoption of this four year program will be good. And a third is this idea of mix and match, which really any promises, which we need to really so I don't think we need new policies. We just need to implement the NEP within state universities, within private universities. And then we hit need a whole new crop of new philanthropic private universities like Ashoka that can lead the way in different states in different geographies.

Anupriya Bahadur  

And on that very positive note, Ashish, thank you so much for taking our time on a packed schedule and being here with us on the morning Brief. So the verdict is clear that the Indian education system at this time is making leaps and bounds but there are miles to go to take this conversation forward founding Vice Chancellor of op Jindal global university professor C. Raj Kumar joins me on this conversation on the morning brief. Thank you so much, Professor Kumar, for joining us.

Prof. C. Raj Kumar  

I am a real pleasure to be here.

Anupriya Bahadur  

First of all, Professor Kumar, take us through your assessment of the landscape for Indian private universities right now. It's been over a decade since op Jindal setup. What is the change in demand and application courses demand from students and parents? How have you seen that evolving over the last decade?

Prof. C. Raj Kumar  

Well, absolutely. It's a it's a fantastic journey and I think it is only fair to say that the opportunities done being made available for young aspirational Indian students to be able to receive high quality education in India is something that universities are providing. In fact, one of the things I noticed having studied in two Indian universities Loyola College, Madras and University of Delhi and three international universities, Oxford University, Harvard University and Hong Kong, I can tell you that today's young people are not looking at universities from the standpoint of public versus private, they are much more focused on the kind of opportunities that the individual institutions are able to provide in terms of quality of faculty, research ecosystem, international collaboration, opportunities, internship opportunities, and the kinds of research agenda of the faculty leading to publications. In a way, this public versus private discourse and debate that still remains in the larger regulatory architecture of India is not necessarily prevailing in the minds and hearts of both the students and the parents. And that's why they are indeed making those choices to be able to be part of institutions such as Op Jindal global university,

Anupriya Bahadur  

Professor Kumar, we've seen almost a big brain drain, if I may call it that when it comes to student migration. And, you know, we were speaking to her she's down from Ashoka University, as well. And there is a large number that is still choosing to go to second round or third round US university, because of some thought process of, I would say, branding exercise. How critical is it at this point for universities in India to step up on the branding game, which comes from employability, which will come from just brand awareness? Where is this gap right now of choice when it comes to an Indian private university versus going to just any university abroad?

Prof. C. Raj Kumar  

So Anupriya, I will not entirely associate the branding alone for this reason. First of all, let us be slightly internally critical as well. The expansion of Indian higher education, unfortunately, did not lead to the creation of only top notch institutions of excellence. The same thing is true for private universities, while Jindal and Ashoka and a few others might have a particular type of philosophy and approach to education. I must confess that that may not be the case with many other private universities. Now, of course, you're absolutely right. Many students from India end up going to not so the tutor institutions abroad, and we need to do something about it. But I would say to begin with, we need to develop an internal evaluation process that will look closely into the quality of our own institutions, we need to be able to identify those flaws, both in terms of governance as well as curriculum and cost structure and the need for hiring good faculty. We need to be able to provide opportunities for our students to be able to seek that education within India. And I think the fact remains that the education that we offer should lead to meaningful opportunities and outcomes in the form of jobs and other career development aspects, all of which become important. We need to focus on quality and excellence that will attract the best minds to stay here.

Anupriya Bahadur  

Professor Kumar, in your opinion, where is the gap? We've seen a big buildup in IB schools in edtech. But there's been a very slow buildup in the higher education side, where does this gap lie? 

Prof. C. Raj Kumar  

Well I can be very candid with you. The reality is, historically, we are an over regulated and under governed sector, this aspect of regulatory challenges have been quite beautifully recognized by no less than the national education policy itself. The more recent policy relating to identifying institutions of eminence, including we being given the sentence of an io e. All of these measures are part of an continuum, which is addressing the issue of regulatory challenges, but also regulatory reforms, and also benchmarking Indian universities with the best in the world. If you see the debate and discourse that's happening in the country today, at least for the last few years now, the no less than the honorable Prime Minister, but also the Education Minister, other CDs, educators are talking about rankings and the need for Indian universities to benchmark and rank internationally, so that we can recognize quality and excellence as a very critical component of assessing the worth of academic institutions. No longer we can take institutions for granted. And in any case, students now have very many opportunities not only limited to India, but also other parts of the world for seeking higher education opportunities.

Anupriya Bahadur  

Professor Kumar Last word from you. You recently Tie up with Cornell as well? Do you see more universities going this way of doing tie up so that they can have better exposure for the students getting an Ivy League brand as well, on the platform that is available to their students?

Prof. C. Raj Kumar  

Yeah, well, absolutely, I think that's the way to go. We have of course, partnerships with over 350 universities spread across 67 countries, including our partners include Harvard and Columbia, and Oxford and Cambridge. And we've done numerous things with these institutions. And the idea is to promote substantive student exchange and faculty exchange and joint conferences and opportunities that will bring us closer and ultimately contribute to the development of knowledge society. In some ways, these collaborations I believe, are going to become far more meaningful than the idea of brick and mortar international university campuses being established in India. Unfortunately, I believe that that model is no longer economically viable, nor it is a sustainable model for the future. I think more and more innovation will be taking place in which you know, dual degree programs, training programs are joint degree programs, and of course, other forms of exchanges between faculty and students between Indian universities and universities from around the world, such as the ones that we have with Cornell is going to become the norm. And this is where there is enormous potential for India and Indian institutions to look at the world.

Anupriya Bahadur  

That positive note Professor Kumar, thank you so much for taking our time. And speaking to us here on the economic times morning brief. years ago, we talked a brain drain as students studying from professional subsidized colleges left India to pursue top dollar jobs. That timeline has shifted much earlier. A research report indicates that over 2 million students will be studying abroad by 2024. And the total spend by these families is going to cross a whopping $80 billion dollars. Undoubtedly, the students of today want options, exposure, and most importantly, assurance. The likes of Ashoka and Jindal are rewriting a new chapter in the Indian education system. But it's clearly not enough. As we encourage industry to make in India, maybe the education industry needs to overhaul and encourage a stay in India program. Well, that will have to be a wait and watch. You tuned into the great student migration on the morning brief here on the economic times. A big thank you for listening in, and the team that puts us together. On the sound side, Indranil Bhattacharjee, from the economic times Vinay Joshi, who produced this episode and executive producers Arijit Barman and yours truly, have a great day ahead.

This transcript has been automatically generated. If by any chance there is an error please send the details for a correction to: themorningbrief@timesgroup.com We will do our best to make the amendment as soon as possible.